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US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
Toyota is to recall 3.8m vehicles in the US – reportedly its largest ever recall in that market – to check for incorrectly installed or incorrect driver's floor mats that could jam the accelerator pedal. The move followed the deaths of four people earlier this month in a new Lexus dealer demonstrator apparently fitted with the wrong mats.
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1 Oct 2009
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
What ever happened to the old fashoned key off. You can do it safely in some vehicles without locking the steering. Brakes and steering are normally still powered as you come to a halt. From a safety perspective, its more important knowing how to stop a car than how to start it. Is it a matter that the keyless systems are far more attractive to customers and an e stop in the car isn't good marketing?
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1 Oct 2009
by Dave Standing
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
I'm smelling a rat here. OK the crash and deaths are real. But the driver was a CHP officer, presumably trained in high speed driving and safety proceedures. He had the presence of mind to call and report that the throttle was stuck open while this was happening... but it never occured to him to put the car in Neutral and coast to a stop? Or, as suggested above, turn the engine off?? (By design, steering wheels do not lock until the vehicle is shifted into park.) I have to wonder if this crash was an accident.
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1 Oct 2009
by
billyjoejimbob
Forum moderator
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
I can attest to this scenario being probable, after having fortunately survived the same experience as describe in the original article myself.
I have made Toyota (Australia) aware of my experience in comprehensive detail, but they seem to be in denial, My Email to Toyota describing the incident is several pages long. Any party that would like a copy should contact me.
In brief, It was a virtually new vehicle,(3000 Km) I was driving under cruise control at less than 100 Klm/hr. When I accelerated heavily (for the first time) to overtake some slower vehicles . I TOOK MY FOOT OFF the ACCELERATOR at about 120 Klm/hr. but the vehicle continued to rapidly accelerate to a very high speed.
Let me assure those who doubt such a thing could happen, it can, and it occurs very,quickly. The driver is not expecting anything like this to happen. It all happens in an instant, although it takes several seconds before you realise something you consider to be impossible is actually happening. By the time I had gathered my thoughts and applied the brakes heavily I was traveling on a long sweeping curve in the roadway and I had drifted onto the wrong side of the road and was fighting for control of the vehicle. It was difficult to stay on the road, let alone contemplate what options one might have to survive the situation. In a matter of seconds I had both feet on the brake with smoke billowing from the front brakes, but the V8 turbo diesel engine overpowers the brakes and the traction control system prevents the brakes for locking up. (no skid marks) But for the grace of God there would have been a very high speed, head on collision, probably resulting in unexplained death.
There is NO ignition key to turn OFF in many of these "high end" models. The STOP button is electronically controlled to prevent the accidental activation of the STOP button when driving. The owners manual tells you to NEVER TOUCH THE STOP BUTTON when the vehicle is moving. Despite this I pressed several times to try and stop the vehicle, vehicle damage seemed like the lesser problem but it had no effect, so I had to considered a controlled crash into vegetation.
I have since been told the engine would have stopped if the STOP button was held in for several seconds.(This is not disclosed to the new owner and is of course is contrary to the instruction manual) The transmission is electronically controlled so the driver is prevented from changing gears down when traveling at high speed. However as I was headed for a sugar cane field the engine STOPPED ??? I don't know why ? It probably seized or stalled, or the STOP BUTTON may have worked.
I contacted Toyota and I was directed to the nearest Toyota dealer. The Toyota workshop service manager at the nearest town took the vehicle for a test drive and had much the same experience. Toyota Brisbane told him it was probably a floor mat problem, the mats were removed and the vehicle was road tested again. I refused to go on the test run, twice in one day was enough for me. I suggested the vehicle be returned to the Toyota factory on a truck. The vehicle was road tested again but on it's return it was found that the gearbox and torque converter had been destroyed. It was a few weeks before the repair was completed. A few days later the main CPU ( primary computer) failed and again it was off the road for a week .
I do not believe that the floor mat was the cause of my problem. No one has been able to replicate the scenario that brings about this uncontrollable experience despite numerous efforts.
The vehicle was fitted with genuine Toyota rubber floor mats and they were fitted by Toyota staff.My vehicle was photographed with the mat sitting on the accelerator. It was alleged that this was the cause of the problem and a official Toyota procedure document was issued to all Australian dealers indicating that they take more care to ensure it did not happen again.
There have been several such notices issued over the years, to no avail, I think many people have been put at risk. I AM CONVINCED THAT THE MAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INCIDENT THAT I EXPERIENCED. Unfortunately it seems to be the easy answer and it has become a mantra within the Toyota organisation, it has been repeated so often it is assumed to be the answer to my experience and many other similar incidents.
When gear box and torque converter were destroyed, along with the CPU. I asked that the vehicle be replaced as I considered the vehicle was now, "DAMAGED GOODS". I was surprised to find that Toyota seems to take the view that they are, or were, absolved from any responsibility under Australian Law in this matter and it is, or was, an issue for the dealers to resolve, as the dealer had installed the floor mats. It was not Toyota's problem. Toyota stated that it had "chosen" to replace the destroyed automatic transmission as an act of good faith and in the interests of customer satisfaction. It was their responsibility it was an act of grace as it was not a product related fault.
I was advised by Toyota that If I had a grievance, I should take legal action against the dealer. They were the responsible party in this matter and Toyota intended to recover it's costs from the dealer.Toyota staff also stated that Toyota had a powerful legal department that would vigorously defend any legal action that I may bring against them.
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3 Oct 2009
by AUSSIE TOM
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
In my prior post, I did not mean to belittle the danger posed by a stuck accelerator, whatever the cause. Nor, did I mean to exccuse Toyota from responsibility for what happened. I agree with you, that the need to hold the engine stop button in for "emergency" stop is a bit of crucial safety instruction that should be explained to every customer.
Still find it hard to believe that a trained highway patrol officer would not think to put the vehicle in neutral. In my many years of driving, I have experienced a run-away condition a couple times, although at partial, not full throttle. One was due to a faulty cruise control defeat switch on a brand new car, the other a throttle link to the transmission that became encrusted with ice (yes it was several decades ago). In both cases, I immediately thought of the quickest way to disconnect the engine from the drive wheels... take the car out of gear. Maybe I find this second nature, since I understand the workings of a vehicle much better than the average driver.
Disturbing that Toyota dealers and the factory representative were so evasive. Did they ever determine if the floormat was to blame?
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5 Oct 2009
by
billyjoejimbob
Forum moderator
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
Thanks for your interest. I was trying to keep it brief and I did not emphasize that in my personal experience, it was not possible to change gears. The gear change is electronically controlled and it was absolutely frozen and unmovable, it could not be moved into neutral or into the semi manual option. The transmission is electronically controlled so the driver is prevented from changing gears when traveling at high speed.
When the Toyota service manager took it for a test drive and the vehicle replicated my previous experience, in his attempt to control the vehicle he tried to change gear very vigorously several times and he managed to crash through into the semi manual mode. While this may have slowed the vehicle down it resulted in the destruction of the gearbox and automatic transmission.
I don't think the cause has been properly investigated or analyzed. It may be that this predictable fatality will get the attention of the an independent authority. It seems to me that Toyota has determined internally, that it is "probably" the floor mat that caused the problem.
In my experience there was no evidence to support that conclusion and no meaningful investigation was undertaken by any professional authority.
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6 Oct 2009
by AUSSIE TOM
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
Your additional comments drive to the more serious questions here: Is this really a case of electronic gremlin(s)? No doubt that Toyota's engineers are working overtime answering that question, while Toyota's official partly line is utter silence on that possibility.
This will probably be the first time in history that auto dealers will do a full diagnostic check of the OBD (On-Board Diagnostic) system to determine if the driver's floor mat is the correct one for the car, and in its proper position... If you catch my drift.
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9 Oct 2009
by
billyjoejimbob
Forum moderator
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RE: US: Toyota to recall 3.8m cars for floor mat check
Does Toyota have electronically controlled “carpet positioning system (CPS)?” I would not be surprised… Just joking… But electronics these days are used for almost anything, that even carpet adjustment could be contemplated as plausible…
There are many other fields where I would wish to use electronics [properly]. One would be in the interaction between the engine and CVT. Subaru Justy may stand as an example of truly bad controls engine-CVT. That gave the black eye to CVTs… But CVTs are recovering… See Nissan...
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16 Oct 2009
by Mark Kmicikiewicz
Forum moderator
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